I don't want to say "I told you so" after the event so i'll list the reasons why its going wrong at RG:

Too much new compilation coverage - For the ad revenue?

It's had so much of this issue after issue.

Answers from RG - No there's not.

-

Will not have readers reviewing games.

Answer from RG - It takes too long to edit them.

Insulting to many.

-

It costs £5 for a magazine.

Fine if its wall to wall quality

Answer from RG - We got rid of the coverdisk so its now cheap/er *(its still £5 for paper).

_

Its Lazy

Month after month we have to have numerous double page spreads of one screenshot.

Do they think we are blind or daft?

Answer from RG - Darran is busy and some people like them (Yea usually people who contribute to the mag!)

The forum - Enough said - Ive seen the posts from many good people here that venture over and I can see why this website is still a home for most of you.

Some of the best answers from the RG...

"You can't please everyone"
"Tomb Raider is Retro"
"We'll reduce the double page spread from 7 to 5 or 6"
"More content than the old RG" Yea same stuff re-written

Out of respect for Darran I didn't want to post this over there but felt I had to say the obvious.

Please feel free to share your comments - If you agree or not :)

Totally agree mate - all of the above combined with dodgy 'behind the scenes' dealing which at some point will undermine RGs standing in the retro community

While you are entitled to your opinion helloall, I don't agree with it (and I'm not just saying that because I write for RG).

You can't please everyone - what you would consider ideal will be dull for someone else. As a reader there are certain things I would like to see changed.

BUT I would say this - reader input is listened to. That's why issues 22 and 23 have more "making of" articles. That's why the freelancers are working hard to interview more people about the classic games they worked on.

Let's go through the main points:

1. Too much retro compilation coverage (for the advert revenue?)
Surely RG readers are going to be the ones buying these compilations, and it makes sense to give an informed opinion on them. Given the current fuss on the RG forum about certain ads at the back of the mag, it's better to get something that is retro related like Taito Legends 2.
8 pages of retro compilation reviews - plus news items - in 5 issues is too much?

2. Will not have readers reviewing games
It would take a serious amount of time and effort to get reader reviews into print. I don't see it working. If you feel strongly about a game, write a good letter and it will get printed.

3. £5 is too much
In comparison to other games mags it's a fair price

4. It's lazy - double page screenshots
Perhaps there are too many, but it is a good way to introduce a classic game/moment

5. The forum
You get out what you put in.

6. "You can't please everyone"
"Tomb Raider is Retro"
"We'll reduce the double page spread from 7 to 5 or 6"
"More content than the old RG" Yea same stuff re-written

No, you can't please everyone. The first Tomb Raider is retro to my eyes. Every issue of "new" RG has had FIVE double-page screenshots. And there are more words per page and more content than "old" RG - remember whole pages wasted on a 100-word intro or just a picture? And old stuff re-written - show me one article that wasn't brand new and made for RG.

Merman, I totally respect your opinion (most of the time ;) ), but I don't understand how or why it would take any more time or effort to include reader reviews.

How would it be any more of a mission to include a reader-submitted piece than a freelance-submitted piece? What would the difference be? We get to use the same spell-checking software that the freelancers do.


I'm all for reader-participation. More than just having a letter published.

Paul

I haven't really had too much of a problem with the new mag, although to be honest i'm not a big fan of the giant two page spreads, maybe if they came with more text alongside them, always just seems like a waste of space.

Sorry HelloAll, I disagree with you.

The old RG was a great mag - but as far as I am concerned, the new RG is a far better read and far more professional.

Price wise - cant argue with the subs price - and if you dont sub, then the 5 quid you pay is hardly massive in comparison to other mags out there.

In agreement with you on a couple of areas though - the stupid double page screenshots are really shat! The write up is just about the right length - but I personally would like a series of decent screenshots - maybe 8 to 10 of them.

AND

Reader reviews - RG really should do this and bring its fan base closer to home. Rossi is right, we have the same spell checkers as the rest of the team. And, if it was headlined as READER REVIEWS and smallprinted saying these are not by the RG team - why would it be so bad? It would be a right larf reading some reviews - but the majority would be average joe's view. I think it would work.

You are wrong to dig RG's grave so early in its comeback - give it a chance.

I think its digging its own grave

Koops you are absolutely priceless :D

As for your facts Helloall, I'll look at them now.

The compilation are nothing to do with Ad revenue. The fact is, if a PS2 title comes out with 20 odd old arcade games on it, chances are people who played these games the first time around will pick them up.

Also, the old RG reviewed all compilations that were available, and yet, that's conveniently forgotten. How strange...

Um, so when did the original RG allow readers to do reviews? First I heard of it.

Show me a better UK retro mag available for the same price or less, and I'll quit my position...

Sorry you don't like them, many do

You can't please everyone. The original game came out on the Saturn, the Saturn is considered by many to be a retro systm, so the game gets covered.
We have 5 dps a month, when I actually get complaints, from enough people, I'll be happy to stop them.
Nothing from the old mags has been reprinted in the new gamesTM. Yes, we've covered the Atari 2600 again, but then the original RG team thought everyone needed bi-monthly features about the games and life of Matthew Smith.

Fact
The new look issue of RG is selling much better than the last 10 or so copies of the old version and it's increasing in sales month after month.

It was inevitable that not everyone was going to like the magazine, but I'd hardly say RG is dying.

Because Retro Survival doesn't receive nearly anywhere near as many posts as it used to, I'm putting your moan on the forum. That way more people will be able to answer it :)

I sure am :D

:D

You started this topic on Easter Sunday? Good God man, what the heck is wrong with you?

Regardless of religion, most people I'm guessing are trying to relax over this long public holiday weekend, and now everyone is getting riled up over that post.

I don't agree with these points, and would explain why. But what's the point, you'd only raise a finger and accuse me of bias because I contribute. I'm sure none of the freelancers would be happy about you accusing RG of being lazy though.


As for other points raised, what "dodgy behind the scenes deals"? And why is it digging its own grave? Clearly I'm out of the loop.
:huh:

I'm riled because I've worked Saturday-Monday while the rest of France are slacking like they only know how and those lazy bastards at Wanadoo won't fix my internet connection at home :D

On-topic, I think there is a slight overreaction to how 'bad' RG is getting at the moment, and perhaps a touch of 'the grass is always greener...' syndrome. I'm enjoying reading the mag in its current form, more than the times where countless obscure text adventure articles used to hog up a whole bunch of pages.

And granted, perhaps a niche thing, but I'd never skipped an article in the mag until the article on modding... it really didn't need to be there. It was the equivalent of screening an episode of Top Gear with an in-depth feature on how to check your brake fluid.

Less melodrama, people ;)

shouldnt that be in the playground area and titled spitting out the dummy?

helloall :)

Okay I think I've stirred up a little emotion in a few people and without trying to get into arguments I'll try to add a little more detail to the points I made.

Let me start by saying that it is only my opinion nothing more.

Right now on with my replies:

I didn't say Retro Gamer is failing but will (in my humble opinion) if it continues with the points mentioned.

My reservations with the Retro compilation reviews aren't to do with the suitability to the reader more to do with the direct association with adverts for said games.

If nothing else it raises a question about the reviews sincerity (And no not in the people just the direct connection is dubious).

I also think that a generally better alternatives like MAME are often omitted from being mentioned in these reviews - Why is this?

For adverts can you look to ebay, Gamestation and the numerous Retro gear websites that generalize in our favourite hobby.

On price...I think its generally acknowledge that games magazines are finding it difficult at the moment and I don't just think its because of the Internet, Many of your potential readers are of University age and £5 is a lot to them.

The whole Tomb Raider thing has been said already but personally I believe that games have to be given time to mature a lot like wine.

Tomb Raider is a very successful franchise and I give it plaudits, but to me its popularity is what has got it into the mag not its Retro value (The mags not called "Successful Gamer" is it) *Please don't put "The Sims" on next months cover!

What else...Oh yea it was Easter Sunday when I wrote that - I'm not that religious and as its a holiday period so it has given me more time to write it.

The Forum has people who take pleasure out of ridiculing others without repercussion and no not just me but each thread I see the same names doing what they do to decent folk.

One example of many being a Retro fan who in his elation at finding the mag and forum said "Nintendo Playstation" in a thread and before most of the welcomes came in people couldn't wait to correct him...Nice

My posts are far from hidden, I just prefer it on here like i've said.

I like the mag but I want to love it, I am only one voice so please people do not get stressed, I just want to be constructive.

Live Publishing ran exactly the same ads. Did you have a problem then? (I'm guessing you didn't...)
Oh, and in case you were unaware, playing ROMs on MAME is illegal, I don't think publishers would think too highly of magazines if they turned around and said things like 'hey, we know £20 pounds is great value for money, but why not download them all for free, as some of the versions are better..."
The recent Taito Legends 2 review makes plenty of referances to how the compilation would be better if it had some of the features MAME did. You obviously haven't read it...

People can get the issue for £2.50 a month if they subscribe. Making your '£5 is too much comment baseless).

Well, everyone has their own idea of what substitutes a retro game, and after seeing your reasons, I totally appreciate why you don't think the game was suitable for the mgazine (that doesn't mean all our other readers think so though...)

Right on brother. Religion causes more atrocities than any discussion on a forum could, I don't have a problem with yuu posting this on a religious day at all.

The majority of the bad posters are actually those who (for their own reasons) want RG to fail. The fact is, all forums have their fair share of idiots. It's just something you have to put up with.

And ultimately, this is your biggest problem. Retro Gamer isn't written for you. It's written for thousands of people who love Retro Gaming and consider it to cover a wide variiety of different machines.
You're obviously a huge fan of 8-bit stuff, and RG doesn't cover as much as it used to, so it's obvious why you don't like it as much. However, it's a little misguided to think that because you don't like certain things about the mag, everyone else does...

Retro Gamer is constantly selling more issues each month, which leads me to believe that plenty of people do like the new look.

What I do appreciate though is that you've actually got the balls to actually say what you don't like about the mag and why. It makes my job a lot easier when I actually know why people don't like certain things.

Indeed. I think PC Zone used to push the boundaries on this a LOT though (in Stuart Campbell's column, no less :lol: ), so maybe you should chat to some of their legal guys about it to see how many threats they received ;)

retro gamer is pukka FACT. Is it just me or does koopa love stirring these things up chill out a bit buddy.

LOL readers letter section of RG:

Hi, I have been getting back to retro gaming for a few months now and have built up quite a collection. I have been enjoying the classics like JSW and Wizbollocks

anyway I have recently read your article about something called 'mame' and afterwards downloaded it but am having problems getting it working, keeps asking for something called 'roms'? (is that right? i'm not sure being so new to mame)

anyway could you help? wh£Re R tEh R0m££

Yo' retrofool

Funny you should say FACT - you should get yours right, I didn't start this thread and if everyone can post their opinion on it, so can I

(all of the above combined with dodgy 'behind the scenes' dealing)

(I think its digging its own grave)



FACT plus the retro fusion topic on the rg forum.

(everyone can post their opinion on it)


Valid point fair enough

Darran has started a thread about this over on RG, and I would just like to say that this forum is NOT anti-RG, but it's good to hear opinions on both sides of the debate.

On the subject of readers' reviews... one simple fact: contracts. What we write now for Imagine becomes their property. We signed a contract to freelance for Imagine. Now think, if they had to do that for EVERYONE who wanted to write a reader review... it would take ages to process all the potentials!

Excuse the bad language but...

Ab-so-lutely fucking, shitty, hairy dirty bollocks rubbish. They can't afford £5 once a month but they can afford to get fucking pissed every night of the week. :angry:

And I know 'cause I serve the little uppity I'm-better-than you attitude wearing gits every sodding night.

That one sticks out to me because all blimmin' games mags prints ads for games they are reviewing. Whether they give them good marks or not.
If RG starts only dissing games it has no adverts for then you may have a point.

Yes RG reviews a few compilations and yes they print ads for the same compilations. This probably has more to do with the fact that they only review a few games per issue and therefore the correlating ads are very noticeable than any bias. If RG reviewed 25 games a month you could safely lay money on them not carrying ads for them all.
3 games a month and yes, they will be able to carry ads for them.

Lack of content seems to getting people hot under the collar as well. I for one don't really like the Gamestm Retro style of putting some captions on a big picture, but to be honest a million and one mags do that. If anything RG has become a commercial publication. And that's not what we used to have. Ye olde Retro Gamer was a magazine by nerds for nerds (no offense) and covered things only the "scene" would be interested in. Interestingly it went out of business.

The new Retro Gamer of the Space Year 2006 is basically a mainstream mag about retro gaming. That's pretty normal from where I'm standing, even if it's not what we're used to. I think we should get used to it. The Fanzines are still there for you if you need them. RG was pretty much a newstand fanzine, to survive it had to become a magazine.
This is true of all "genre" or specialist mag markets. Loads of SF or movie mags etc have started off as Fanzines but had to go commercial to survive. And to go commercial yes you have to potentially alienate some of your fanbase because you gain far more readers than you lose.

It's different but I like it and I think it wise to grow to like it because it's better than the alternative. Way better.

Disclaimer - all imho, flaming will only make me worse :rolleyes:

Look at this rebellious thread! :D
The old hands of RS standing up to the corporate machine that is RG! :lol:

In all seriousness though, it's good to have a mag like RG around. Like the old RG it acts as a focus for the retro scene as a whole, just like good old RS did in the days when we were wandering in the desert and nobody knew which version of Manic Miner was going to survive those horrible times.

Now RG isn't perfect. In fact, it's a bit shit in some ways and even has ads at the back for lonely spods who fancy a wank at five quid a minute, but I wouldn't like to see it fail and I don't think it will fail. There's too many decent lads and lasses involved in it's production who thoroughly enjoy the whole retro shebang from start to finish. :D

For the rest of us there's the shining light in the encroaching darkness of today's dullard gaming that is Retro Fusion. That lovingly crafted tome of goodness and light that, yes, I'm sure of it, smells of lovely strawberries and cream on a hot summer's day as it sits on the shelf in Gamestation enticing us with it's juicy contents.

I have not been drinking. :D

Interestingly though, it wasn't RG that went out of business. It was it's publisher. The publisher went out of business because it's other mags were performing poorly. RG was still doing okay. Not as good as it once had, but still doing well enough to make a profit.

The post has gone off on several tangents and without taking the bait of provocation (Not so much here) I would just like to thank people who posted constructively to my comments be it positive or negative.

That was always the intention and in part it has done that.

I hope some people do take up Darrans offer to post a passionate well written review of there favourite game, I know many here are more than capable and I'm sure it would make a very enjoyable read.

Thank You.

:D

Ah, so that's why you're always moaning about RG, I'll have to check the credits and see if you appear in it...

I know it was the publisher that went out of business and I considered changing it to say that but I decided it was a valid point. RG was ok on it's own but not enough to prop up a portfolio. I don't think Imagine could publish the mag as it was and expect to stay in business either. Also I don't really think that RG was blameless in the downfall of Live. Although it could have been, I'm not shelling out for access to the financial records ;)

All the same it was vaguely innacurate in as much as it could be interpreted different ways (by the pedantic mind you) and I used it for impact.

I haven't been drinking either :(

:lol:

I'm not involved with the production of RF in any way.

I'm not always moaning about RG. Sometimes I very much don't moan about RG at all. It isn't unknown for me to actually praise it now and again. Not often these days but it does happen.

What you're seeing is a group of posts from somebody who doesn't actively get involved on the RG forum in a big way because it's become a forum more suited to people new to the retro scene who have been brought there through the gateway of RG itself. I'm trying to avoid the word "noob" here. Remember, I've seen 99% of the topics in the RG forum before, on the old RG forum and elsewhere. So it isn't the place for me to hang out and stay interested. However, it is the place for Feedback. Now I'm not going to bother posting all that back-slapping job-well-done bollocks over at RG because there's plenty of other people who do that already so, unfortunately, I tend to come across as a bit negative because I do all that "why is this mag so poxy?" and "change this into this and I may condescend to buy your tatty mag again" sort of stuff that I feel you should hear. :D

Can I start a thread on the RG Forum called 'Why Retro Fusion will fail' ? :P *





















*Before anyone get's in a shitty wanky mood, I'M JOKING 1111!!!!!!!! I will be the good citizen that I am & buy my copy when I visit my local Gamestation at the end of the week.

To be fair Crunchy, I have no problems at all with your posts, as they are always constructive. The only reason I mentioned Retro Fusion was because of the hyperbolic phrase I highlighted. It meant you had either worked on it, or not actually read it ;)

I've no problem at all with people who don't like the magazine, it's when their judgement gets clouded (as with this original thread) that I tend to step in...

A lot of mags would fail to prop up an entire portfolio on their own.
I reckon you're right that the old RG would have gone under if it had continued as it was. The last issues were wafer thin and more and more people were going unpaid but then it was all down to the fact that the company was in trouble already. Bit of a Catch 22 there. There was vague talk of money being siphoned from RG to elsewhere also, if you remember, so who knows?

As a new owner Imagine were always going to put their own spin on how RG would look and what it would contain. They went for a glossy professional look which works for some people more than others. The content varies, same as the old RG, although it seems more lightweight to me overall. The charm has gone too. The price of looking slick. A marmite thing if ever their was one.

It strikes me that this is a case of "too many cooks". I'm sure that if we all had a similar level of access to the creators/contributors of Crash or Zzap64 back in the '80s we'd see the same criticisms being levelled at Rignall and Co.

I think the problem here is really the age old "can't please everyone" dilemma - except now we can all post our opinions here and it's like having a UK-wide playground debate, but this time instead of moaning about it to our mates in the playground we can ALL moan about it together and it inevitably becomes an attempt at TRYING to please everyone, even whilst being aware that it's not possible.

This is what we get when the means to open up a debate to the entire community becomes reality. We even have Darran joining in - imagine moaning about the latest issue of Zzap64 to your mates at school back in the mid-80s and having Julian Rignall join in too?!

The level of access to like-minded readers PLUS the access to the creators is unprecedented (well, prior to a handful of years ago) and it makes each and every one of us feel like we have "an important opinion that must be heard". Fair enough, but then we're back to trying to please everyone all of the time. In the end, we have to make our opinions known and let Darran and co. get on with it. It's really great being able to contribute opinions and level praise and criticism at the guys in charge, but design by commitee never, ever works.

For my tuppence worth, I loved the old RG, I really like the new "commercial" RG and I'm looking forward to Retro Fusion. The more the merrier as retro gaming is something I really enjoy.

DonkeySpank speak the truth.

We did all think/dream we could review games for 8-bit mags (how many sent them in thinking they might be the next reviewer?). We did all complain at them furiously. Thing was, we could only do it in letter and if they ignored us we didn't go storming into their offices and chin them.

Nowadays we have virtual access to just about any magazine and the writers/editors listen to us a fair bit.

We're probably so well off these days that we've lost sight of that and think we're entitled to more.

We ought to hang our heads in shame.

Maybe.

Very good point Donkey.

I had a rare moment of lucidity. It won't happen again! ;) :D

OK. Here's the situation. Posts here have been deleted because of their content.

I AM NOT TAKING SIDES IN THIS DISAGREEMENT, but Retro Survival is NOT about any perceived "war" between the magazines.

This thread is now locked before anything is said that could be regretted or taken against Retro Survival, which is not directly affiliated with either magazine.